Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Welcome to the Unfinished Church. 

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

I’m Gregory Palmer. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

I’m Mike McKee. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

And I’m LaTrelle Miller Easterling. The Unfinished Church is a place for brave conversations to build a world in which racial prejudice has no power. God is not finished with us. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

I’m so looking forward to our hearing this conversation with Brian McLaren. One of the things that he says that continues to resonate with me is this notion of the family secret. And I think we can all relate to that. One of the ways, or one of the problems with doing the work of anti-racism, is that some folks believe they’re going to have to disavow a family member, that as they look back and are honest about their family’s history, they’re going to have to hate their grandfather. They’re going to have to disavow their relationship with their great-grandmother. And we know that, that’s not necessary, but there’s some human compulsion that we think if we admit that our families owned slaves, or that there was racist rhetoric, that we would need to completely disassociate ourselves with them. That’s a painful thing to have to think about. And it reminds me of that great saying, “If we ask people to change, we better be there for them when they do.” How are we going to be a part of the healing with them? 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

One of the things that resonated with me was this capacity to listen well. And if you remember, Brian McLaren talked about an incident in his own life, his faith journey, in which he talked about doubt, his doubt. And the person who was listening to him didn’t just nod his head and say, “I understand, I hear you.” Instead he offered something else, something so good that I’m excited that other people are going to hear that story in a few moments. So I think this idea of secrets and listening is so important to understanding what it means to overcome racism in our own lives and in the lives of those who we remember who came before us. 

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

Well, I’m going to get on the train with both of you about this family secret thing. And the phrase that keeps popping into my head comes out of family systems theory. And I don’t know if it was Mary Boham or Ed Friedman, but “secrets are the plaque in the arteries of communication.” One phrase that I remember. So just imagine that sociologically, imagine that between nations, that the secrets actually keep us from coming together. We think we’re protecting ourselves, maybe protecting other people, we’re actually making the harm go on longer. So, that’s one of the things that I take away from the conversation, that we’ve got to overcome our secrets and open up the arteries of communication between us, wherever the differences are. The other thing that occurs to me as I listen to him is that book he did a number of years ago, entitled A Generous Orthodoxy. His spirit and his tone exuded generosity. And it is possible for us to have strong convictions and to not be vitriolic about them. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

This week, we are talking about listening for understanding with Brian McLaren. The word of God repeatedly calls us to listen – “Listen to advice and accept instruction that you may gain wisdom in the future.” That’s Proverbs 19 and 20. “Whoever has ears, let them hear,” from Matthew, the 11th chapter, the 15th verse, and “a cloud overshadowed them and a voice came out of the cloud, this is my beloved son. Listen to him,” from the book of Mark the ninth chapter, the seventh verse. Yet empathic listening, sacred listening, isn’t something that comes naturally for most people. It is far more natural to begin formulating our rebuttal rather than releasing ourselves to be fully present to the speaker. Deep listening requires courage, humility, and the possibility of needing to expand one’s thinking. Bridging the gap of racial inequity in this country and building relationships across racial difference will require this type of listening. 

We are thrilled to be joined by author, speaker, activist and public theologian, Rev. Brian McLaren, a former college English teacher and pastor. He is a passionate advocate for a new kind of Christianity, one that is just, generous, and working with people of all faiths for the common good. Brian, welcome to the Unfinished Church. 

Brian McLaren: 

Well, I feel like I’m right where I belong if we’re talking about being unfinished. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Amen. Amen. So let’s get right to the deepest things that we know. In your journey from fundamentalism to where you are today, you have clearly learned to enter conversations with curiosity and not certainty. How did you muster the courage to begin your journey to think and listen beyond your original construct of beliefs and bias? 

Brian McLaren: 

First that question, I think contains the answer in it, because I do think all of us are raised within one sort or another of a bubble, where there’s a set of expectations. In fact, it’s part of what makes us feel safe as children. We’re around family members and extended family and friends, and maybe even church brothers and sisters. We see the world the same way, we share assumptions, and it feels like a safe and comfortable world to grow up in. But I think for me, even when I was a student in secondary school, and I would meet students from other religious backgrounds and other racial and ethnic backgrounds, and I would see they had a different viewpoint on the world than I had. 

And I remember feeling if I’m faithful to my religious community, I just have to judge these people as wrong. But if I judge these people as wrong, I feel I’m being unfaithful to Jesus who said to love your neighbor as yourself. And part of loving your neighbor as yourself is wanting to be listened to and paid respect, and not written off before you even get your first word out because of who you are, or how you look. And so I think for me, it began even when I was in high school, it certainly intensified in college, but I often tell the story of a real transforming moment for me that happened when I was in graduate school. My wife and I had just gotten married, moved into a new apartment, and that was part of graduate student housing at my university, and my next door neighbor, my neighbor above me in the next department, was an Iranian family. And there was a little boy named Armen. I think he was about eight years old. And Armen became, in some ways, my first interfaith and cross-cultural ambassador. 

And he was such a charming and persistent and resilient kid that he and I just hit it off, and he was my first Muslim friend. And I remember feeling this friendship is changing me. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Well, indeed. And scripture always tells us, the little children shall lead us. 

Brian McLaren: 

Listen, this is a case in point. That’s right. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

So if we could go even a little bit deeper on the sacred practice of listening, in your book, Faith After Doubt, you state, it’s scary to be a sinner falling into the hands of an angry God, but it can be equally scary to be a doubter falling into the hands of angry believers. Doubt can breach the psychological fortress in which we felt safe, and you talked about feeling safe a moment ago. Tear up the internal map by which we’ve navigated the world and threatens to separate us from God’s favor and love. And then beyond all those losses, it can rob us of the relationships most near and dear to us. So I ask you, what advice would you give us on how to engage in this kind of deep listening across lines of division beyond the framework of fear, that fear that keeps us so bound? 

Brian McLaren: 

Oh, my, Bishop, when I was in college, I was going through an extended period of doubt and I remember being deeply afraid. I wasn’t sure God existed anymore. I wasn’t sure about so many things that I’d, not only been brought up to believe, but had become very personally committed to. And I had a dear friend who one day, we didn’t use this term back then, but he was really like a pastor to me as just a layperson, and like a spiritual director to me, even though that wasn’t a term I’d ever heard of. And I got up my courage and I told him about all my doubts. I just said, I’m just not sure of this and this and this. And I poured up my heart. He’s sitting across this living room from me and he says, well, Brian, he said, I really hear you, that you’re having doubts, and God doesn’t seem real to you. He said, I just want you to know, God is real to me. And right now I have enough faith for both of us. So it really doesn’t matter to me how your faith is or not. 

Brian McLaren: 

And then he said to me, if you were to become an atheist tomorrow, it wouldn’t change our friendship. I’m your friend, no matter what. And that little phrase, friend no matter what, I remember said something to me that I don’t think I had ever experienced. I wasn’t sure if my parents would be my friend, no matter what, if I didn’t believe what they taught me. And to have a human being say it and I think meant it. And so I think one of the things that really helps is if we’ve ever experienced unconditional love from anybody, it helps us then have the courage to really listen and to be open to things that might upset the apple cart, so to speak. To have a friend, or a soul brother, a sister, a friend, who knows us and accepts us unconditionally, I think helps us have the courage to enter into some challenging and dangerous territory. A lot of people maybe have never had that though. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Exactly. And don’t you think, especially on the topic of race, especially with how divisive and explosive that topic is right now, to be able to claim that kind of safe space, that kind of no matter your question, no matter your history, no matter what you bring to this conversation, I’ll be your friend, no matter what. I just would think that would be such a gift for us to be able to bridge this chasm that we have right now around racism. 

Brian McLaren: 

This is the, I think you just touched Bishop Easterling on this key idea that has made sense to me for a long time. And I wonder if it’ll make sense to other people. I think that white people’s problem with people of color is actually a problem with other white people, or it’s largely a problem with other white people. In other words, the prejudices and biases and bigotry and unexamined assumptions of their fellow white community, poses to them a threat. They know that if they were to disagree with those things, they aren’t sure they would be accepted by other white people. And it’s as if there’s this unwritten contract in a lot of social settings that we allow a certain amount of diversity. But if you disagree on these things, you touch the ungrounded electric cord, and you’re going to get a shock in response. 

And here is where you brought up the word courage before. And I do think there comes a moment where people make in a split second, they decide, do I have the courage to differ from the people that I’ve never even thought about this consciously, but there are people who have power over me, the power of potential rejection? And am I willing to risk that on behalf of what I think really matters? 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Indeed, indeed. In an article entitled, “Racism among white Christians is higher than among the nonreligious. That’s no coincidence,” written by Robert P. Jones, he states white Christians are consistently more likely than whites who are religiously unaffiliated, to deny the existence of structural racism. 

Brian McLaren: 

Yes. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

So now I’m going to turn this topic on its head. If that is the case, what do those of us within sacred circles need to stop listening to? How do disabuse ourselves of these notions? 

Brian McLaren: 

Well, speaking personally, I remember the groundbreaking moment for me. I was in my fifties, and I’m a pretty well-read person. I take my faith seriously. I’m curious. I love to read. And it wasn’t until I was in my fifties that I even heard of something called the Doctrine of Discovery. And the story that goes way back, everybody knows the date 1492, but the date 1452 ends up being even more significant, because on that date and in the years that followed, Pope Nicholas V and the following popes, issued a series of letters to the Christian Kings of Europe, telling them, and people will think I’m making this up unless they go read it themselves. And they can easily do that by googling Doctrine of Discovery. But the Pope said to the Christian Kings of Europe, go into all the world and make slaves of all nations. This unbelievable “great commission,” that came from the highest leader of the Christian religion. 

And when I learned about this, things started clicking into place. I felt like I’d uncovered the family secret. And when I uncovered the family secret, and I realized that deep in our history was this sense of superiority for Christians, let’s call this Christian supremacy or, and another term for it is Christian exceptionalism, Christians were given the right, God-given right through the Pope to make slaves of other nations. Once I saw that, I realized that European Christian supremacy became white supremacy. And so now there is a theological dimension to this supremacy. When I understood that, I realized that this was pervasive in Christian history. And the Protestants, when they broke away a few decades later, they had their version of it, and the Catholics had their version of it. 

But so in a certain sense, Bishop, what I feel is, it’s that we have to take everything from our Christian history from 1452 to the present, and look at it with a certain amount of critique to say, where is that supremacy built in, subtly or in obvious ways? Where is it built in? And I think we’re not going to get to where we need to be until we’re willing to interrogate our family secret in that way. Does that make sense? 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

It makes absolute sense. And I love that turn of phrase, the family secret, if you will. And again, these familial relationships, not only our family of origin, but our Christian family, we’re so connected to that, to be able to say that there’s something wrong from its inception, that there was something that was inappropriate baked into it. For me, there’s always this resistance from individuals that are engaging the topic of anti-racism. You’re asking me to disown my ancestors. You’re asking me to hate my family of origin. You’re asking me to hate my great, great grandfather. And I guess what you’ve just articulated helps us understand that. To be willing to go back and deconstruct something from its inception might feel like disengaging with that community. But in fact, it is simply, if I hear you correctly, it’s going back and then reconstructing what was meant from the beginning, what would’ve been appropriate from the beginning. 

Brian McLaren: 

I think that’s right. And there’s an interesting way that, what Jesus said about the truth setting you free, really applies here. Because if I look back and realize that my ancestors were part of a religion that was perpetuating a set of assumptions, hidden between the lines, hidden, it was intentionally hidden. If I realize this, then it doesn’t make me hate my ancestors, it makes me in a sense, have compassion on them that they were part, that they themselves were sucked into something. They were never given an alternative to it. They were never given a say in it. They were born into it and raised into it. 

But see, what that does is it simultaneously allows me to name, if I want to use the word sin, or to name the wrong, or to name the injustice, to not feel superior over anybody, but to understand that this was part of the deck of cards that they were given. And then it simultaneously puts a moral summons on my life. Am I going to perpetuate the family secret, or am I going to make a break with it? And am I going to acknowledge the harm that has been done by this secret? And now try to be part of healing it. I feel this acutely, because I know that this Christian supremacy was so deeply embedded in my ancestors. And I know that it resulted in all kinds of supremacy, including racial. Yeah. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Absolutely. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

Brian, it’s so good to have you with us today. And as I was listening to you, there was something that occurred to me about American Christianity. We are certain about so many things and it is like, we prefer that certainty over any kind of clarity about a moral vision. 

Brian McLaren: 

Yes. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

What God really might be doing in the world. And I contend that, that may be a particular issue, one issue for the church right now. So how do we get around this certainty? How do we engage with people who are so certain that what they say and what they believe is absolute God-given truth? How do we get them to an awakening of the spirit within each other? 

Brian McLaren: 

Yeah. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

I think that’s a challenge for American Christianity. 

Brian McLaren: 

I think that’s an understatement, Bishop, that’s right. It’s a challenge. We have to do it. We have to engage it. But the first thing is we better expect it’s going to make some people mad first. When we study about the dying process, we often say that there are stages in the dying process. And when a person gets a diagnosis that they don’t want to hear, their first reaction is denial. And I think denial is just this part of, it’s part of us. I happen to be present at a terrible accident scene once. And there was a person, I don’t want to describe it because it was quite gory, but the person who’d been severely injured, I’ll never forget what he said as he was lying on the ground. He said, I don’t want this to be happening. I don’t want this to be happening. I don’t want this to be happening. And I just remember as he said it, I thought, I totally understand how you feel. 

And I think what happens is, a lot of our lives are difficult. We’re dealing with a whole lot and somebody comes and says, your entire culture is hiding a secret. Your entire culture is built on a myth. You’re stage managing everything to keep a family secret, secret. People who might be able to understand this is anyone who’s had addiction in the family. We’ve all met families where dad was an alcoholic and mom and the kids, he might beat them up, and they wear long sleeve shirts to cover the bruises. Everybody is conscripted to help keep the secret. There is just no easy way to be the first one to break the secret. Look, sometimes this is super costly. I think about a friend of mine. She had been sexually molested by a family member. And when she went public, her entire family turned against her, and they just felt like you’re ruining our family. You’re destroying our family. 

So these things are not easy. And all that I think we could do at this moment for anyone who’s listening, who on some level knows we’re keeping a secret, we’re covering something up, their certainty has a tiny bit of a crack in it. Then all we can say to them is, we love you. We understand this is a process for you to come to develop the courage to face this secret. You might not be ready today, but today you might say, I hope I’ll be ready tomorrow. In other words, you start a process of moving toward readiness. But there are other people, and these are the ones that in some sense I’m most worried about, they would hear a conversation like this and all they would feel is fury and anger. And the thing I would say to them is, I certainly hope you could at least imagine this. Maybe we’re wrong, maybe we’re wrong. Maybe we’ve become part of a group that’s deceived us all. But if you think that’s possible for me, I hope you’ll be open to the possibility that it’s possible for you too. 

And you, at least, if you love the truth, you at least owe yourself to give the same scrutiny to what you believe as you’re applying to what seems so disturbing that I, or others, might be saying. And I don’t know if there’s any shortcut around that, Bishop McKee, because if people, to quote Jesus, “if they love darkness rather than light, they will not step out into the light.” They won’t want to learn the fact. And I just think that’s a harsh, moral choice. And let’s be honest, one of the terrible things our churches do, is they allow people to show up Sunday after Sunday, and traffic in the language of forgiveness and grace, when they’re unwilling to seek the truth, if that truth is painful. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

That’s powerful. What you’ve described in essence, Brian, is convicted humility. That convicted humility that I think is so important for this work and any work that’s going to take us beyond superficiality. 

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

As you were talking about this readiness, and as I was listening to you, I was hearing a couple of things leap from the Gospel pages. One phrase is repent and believe the gospel. And then I was thinking about this image of repentance. And I was thinking about the way Matthew narrated the ministry of John the Baptist as people were going out to him. He has some fairly harsh language, you brood of vipers, et cetera, but this phrase sticks with me. So let’s say repentance comes for any individual, any group, any tribe. And there’s this phrase that haunts me, and I’d love to know what you think a picture would look like. He says, therefore, produce fruit that proves your repentance. King Jimmy says, refers to it as repentance and neatness. What does the fruit of repentance? So let’s assume we help through our preaching ministry to get people ready to that place of readiness you’ve described. It’s all the Holy Spirit. We know that, but what does that fruit look like? 

Brian McLaren: 

The beautiful thing about fruit is that it calms, when the conditions are right, the fruit calms. And what’s so beautiful about this in the Gospel, I think especially for the apostle Paul in Galatians, he says, look, if you want to figure out the condition of the heart, look at the fruit you’re already producing. In other words, the condition of your heart will produce fruit. And if the fruit is anger and dissension and fractiousness, and if people are biting and devouring one another in a hateful division, you already know what the condition of your heart is, the fruit is telling you. And if you’re gentle and peaceful and patient and kind and forbearing, if you’re willing to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice, if you see that having your heart, there’s no more evidence you need of the condition of your heart and the presence of the spirit at work and your life. 

And so it seems to me, that part of what’s going on in our nation right now is that we have one group of people who are facing our history and facing the truth, and they’re bringing forth fruit of repentance. So this might mean that white people, for the first time in their lives, aren’t trying to tell people of color the way things are. But they’re asking people of color, help me understand the way things are for you. I can speak to this very personally, because I grew up in a white subculture that assumed that white people were right. And my paternal grandfather, I remember he could not stand Dr. King. I grew up, I was coming of age in those times. My paternal grandfather could not stand Dr. King. He always called him that communist. That was his way of attacking him. 

My father, I lived just outside of Washington, DC, and while the March on Washington was going on, my father put my brother and I, just little boys, in the backseat of our station wagon and drove us down so that we could go and see that. He said to me, “History is taking place. I want you kids to remember this. This is an important day in history.” And he knew that the changes that were happening needed to happen. And he knew that we were young and couldn’t fully grasp the significance of it. But to this day, I remember looking out the window and seeing the crowds of people who had amassed in Washington for the Poor People’s Campaign. And because my father had the courage to differ from his father, I remember to this day being there. And I’m so grateful for my father’s example in that. 

But very often I would say, Bishop Palmer, that the first fruit of repentance is very often the courage to speak up and differ from those around you. It doesn’t mean having to attack and tell people they’re… and call them names. But it very often means saying, “Dad, I don’t see it that way. Mom, I don’t see it that way. Brother, I understand what you’re saying. I don’t see it that way. My heart’s changed. I used to think like you, I can’t think that way anymore.” And that takes some courage, but I think it’s like breaking a sound barrier, that’s also breaking the spell of denial. 

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

Thank you. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

That word courage just keeps coming up, doesn’t it? That word courage just keeps resonating as a part of this conversation. And what a rich conversation we are having. And Rev. McLaren, we’re asking all guests two questions. So I wonder if you might allow me to pose these to you now. How do you talk with people about racial justice who don’t think, act, or look like yourself? 

Brian McLaren: 

A moment comes to mind that has been repeated, I think about three times, but the first moment came in 2008, right after the presidential election. And I was in Wilmington, Delaware, I was there to speak. And it was early in the morning, I was walking down the street from my hotel to a coffee shop. And I, as a white man walking down the street, an African-American is walking in the other direction and our eyes met. And I smiled and I said, it’s a good morning. And he smiled at me and he said, yes, we can. And it was a moment where the two of us in just a second it took to pass each other, gave each other a signal that we understand the dynamics that are going on. 

A couple of just four, maybe five years ago, I was walking down the street, again, I was traveling. I was walking down the street in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and there’d just been a mass killing. And a man was coming by walking his bicycle up the sidewalk, a man there in New Mexico, probably of Mexican descent, and our eyes met. And this was a day when we were all reeling from yet another mass killing. And he caught my eye and he said, good afternoon, my brother. And he’s, as a person of color, caught the eye of a white man. And he didn’t want to just let us walk by without making eye contact. We made eye contact. And I think there are these moments where we just make contact as human beings. And we say, we’re stepping out of the roles that racial categories have taught us to occupy separate worlds and never address the realities we face. 

And so I would say Bishop, that’s one of the things that I try to do, I try to make those personal contacts and it’s almost a kind of signaling to one another. I’m your friend, I’m not your foe. I’m your brother, I’m not your enemy. And I think it shows in a hundred different ways, sometimes in words, sometimes in deed, that we rebuild those connections. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Yeah. That is very powerful. The second question is how do you care for your soul in the midst of this anti-racism work? 

Brian McLaren: 

One of the things I find myself saying to myself quite often, I’ll be speaking to a group and I’ll feel enormous affirmation from some people and from other people, I can feel the daggers. I know that I’m making their lives more difficult. This is especially for white folks. If they accept what I’m saying, it’s going to put them in trouble with many people in their social circle of other white people. And so when the daggers come, or the resistance comes, I just try to do two things. For my own ego, and I try to say this isn’t about you, this isn’t about you, you just made their lives more difficult. Of course, they’re upset a little bit with you. And in that sense, I try to then have compassion for them. 

It just happened to me this week. This past week, I was speaking at a retreat for pastors and one pastor came up afterwards and he said, “This was very hard for me. These conversations were very hard for me.” And he explained about his congregation. And I just said to him, I know it’s hard. I’ve been there. And my heart goes out to you. And I thank you for being willing to bear the pain. I didn’t let them off the hook and say, don’t worry about it. I said, thank you for being willing to bear the pain. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

I appreciate that. It reminds me of a statement I heard once. And I confess, I don’t remember the individual who said it, but it was, if we ask people to change, we better be there for them when they do. 

Brian McLaren: 

Oh my. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

And so just that connection of, I hear you, brother. Again, not letting off the hook, but being present to that moment, that epiphany and that confession of what they’re going through, sometimes I think is just enough, to allow someone to continue this very difficult work. We shouldn’t make light of how difficult this work is. Again, we’ve talked about what it can cost someone in terms of relationships, but also just within themselves, to be willing to confront something and admit I was wrong. So I appreciate that. You give me much hope and the statement that I’m going to carry forward, perhaps it was even the way you said it, when the conditions are right, the fruit comes. There’s a hopefulness in that for me. There’s the right kind of certitude in that for me. I wonder if there’s something that either Bishop Palmer or Bishop McKee would say has resonated for them in this conversation.

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

What leaped out at, let me say a dozen things leaped out at me, but the one that I’m latched onto at this moment, is this notion of friend, no matter what. What does it mean? And I know I’m taking a little license here, but I’m wrestling with the voice of Jesus or the words of Jesus. I no longer call you servants, but friends. So, I feel pulled by your conversation, brother Brian, into what does genuine friendship look like in a hostile world? 

Brian McLaren: 

Thank you. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

Bishop Easterling, I would echo what you said about fruit. Seems to me that one of the dangers that may be happening in the church, I don’t know if I should use the word danger, is that we are not focused on bearing fruit. Some people think that we are, but sometimes I think we’re focusing on weeds that grow and forget it is really fruit that we are supposed to produce instead of a lot of weeds and a lot of trouble for people. And I think this is a right time for American Christianity to recover this centeredness of the Gospel that should be ever present in the life of the church and the life of individuals as well. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Indeed. And I want to thank you, Brian, for your honesty, your transparency. I think that for, again, hearkening back to the scripture, one of the scriptures I opened with for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear, you’re modeling what it is to take this journey. What it is to walk this path toward truth, this convicted humility. I think it’s important for us to have individuals such as yourself to look to for persons to be able to say, if he could do it and still be a man of God, still be a man of faith, still have relationship, I can do it too. So I thank you for your courage and your witness and for being a model for those who in their heart of hearts know that something is amiss. The family secret is there. We need to walk out into the light. 

Brian McLaren: 

Can I just say how grateful I am? I just think of all the Methodists in the country who might be looking for the courage. And I’m especially thinking of from the majority white culture who might be looking for the courage to address some of these issues of systemic racism and even racism expressing itself in their own families. And there’s a certain kind of God and country thing that gets put together, a kind of Christian nationalism, that makes it sound like to bring these issues up makes you both unChristian and unpatriotic. But it seems to me what you three are doing through this conversation, is you’re giving a message to Methodists and Christians in general in this country and elsewhere to say, you know what? Some of our leaders are taking the lead in having these conversations. So I won’t be alone if I decide to take this step as well. And I think that helps us all be more courageous when we know we’re not the only one. 

Bishop LaTrelle Easterling: 

Well, thank you, Brian. Thank you for sharing your heart with us today on the Unfinished Church podcast. Beloved, please tune in next time when we go deep with Willie Jennings about cultural humility. 

Bishop Mike McKee: 

Episodes are available on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Bishop Gregory Palmer: 

Connect with us and find related resources on our website, theunfinishedchurch.org. The Unfinished Church. Conversations that transform.